My name is Frank… and I have an announcement to make…
I don’t believe in god(s).
No matter your god’s name…
No matter how masculine, feminine, or genderless…
No matter how singular or plural…
No matter how earthly or divine…
No matter how mainstream or fringe…
No matter how enticing your god’s promises…
or terrifying your god’s threats…
I don’t believe in god(s).
That said, if anybody out there has a conception of a supreme being that fits the data– and does not insult my intelligence and my innate sense of right and wrong– please educate me. I’m an honest and courageous listener but be advised: I am also an honest and courageous challenger.
I thought I might try to make you think a little bit, but I see that you are set on your “I don’t know” paradigm. It’s not my job to prove anything, and Matthew 7:6 tells me that I’m done here.
Lee Strobel set out to prove there wasn’t a God and ended up becoming a Christian. He was seeking truth, and that is really the bottom line. No matter how many people say there is this god, those gods, no God or THE God — they can’t all be right because they contradict each other. If you understand that there is ONLY one truth, you have 2 choices. You can believe what you want and roll the dice you’re correct. Or, you can search for truth and don’t stop until you find it. As for me, I know the Truth, and His name is Jesus.
1. I never said “God does not exist.” It’s a meaningless statement until you define what you mean by “God”.
2. What do YOU mean by “God”? (asked quite sincerely)
3. I have never set out to prove that “God does not exist.” It’s YOUR job as a believer to convince others that she/he/it DOES exist.
4. You are quite right– all the options listed cannot be true, but the choice is not between “God” and “not God”. That’s just Pascal’s wager. In other words, it’s not a coin flip as you suggest.
5. I am making no claims at all. In fact, I am humbly agnostic regarding the true nature of ultimate reality.
6. Ask yourself: Why does “God” need [millionaire author] Lee Strobel’s help getting the word out? Don’t you think the Bible, if truly “the inspired word of God” would stand on it own merits?
Have you read my post titled “An Atheist’s Search for Jesus”? (https://frankjpeter.com/2022/08/01/an-atheists-search-for-jesus/)
Frank. Honest question. Why is it important for one such as you who clearly doesn’t believe in God or gods.. to challenge those who do to demonstrate to you why we believe? Im a bit lost as to your motivation for such an obviously “fruitless” and meaningless task.
I see from your avatar that you are a self-proclaimed “Christian” who believes in “the God of Abraham”.
I have read your Bible. One only needs to scratch the surface of Genesis and Leviticus to see that “the God of Abraham” is a capricious, needy, sadistic monster— a god that I, in good conscience, am compelled to reject on eminently MORAL grounds. Even if “He” (everybody knows that “god” is a man, right?) does exist, I refuse to bow before him.
You ask why I decided to go public with my rejection of your god. I decided to do so because belief in your mythical god has been, and continues to be, the cause of unimaginable carnage and suffering all around the world.
Let me counts the ways: The concentration of power in so many monarchies and the exploitation that entailed for centuries, the religious fervor and nationalism that “justified” every war ever fought in Europe, the Tsarism and authoritarianism in Russia, the crusades, the bloody reformation and counter reformation, the inquisitions, and witch hunts… the stifling of scientific progress for centuries (ref: Giordano Bruno, Galileo)… the African slave trade… countless ethnic cleansings and genocides (Armenia, the Balkans)… the Holocaust… the Troubles in Northern Ireland… the never-ending strife in Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank… Islamic terrorism and antisemitism… the colonialism bent on the destruction of peaceful indigenous people and cultures everywhere… the patriarchy, racism, tribalism, misogyny, and homo-hatred that define white Christian Nationalism… and the indoctrination of innocent children with the terrorizing message: God loves you, but you better love him back—or else!
By the way, before you jump to any conclusions about which direction my moral compass points, have you seen my post titled “An Atheist’s Search for Jesus”? (https://frankjpeter.com/2022/08/01/an-atheists-search-for-jesus/)
So, would you say youre on a “crusade” against a god you don’t believe to exist because of those who sometimes do horrible things?
1. Not against a god I don’t believe exists, but against the god MEME that festers in the neural nets of “true believers”.
2. Such horrors as I listed were/are not incidentally committed by imperfect Christians. Such atrocities were/are central to their faith, as codified in your “holy” book.
By the way, I would agree with much, but obviously not all, of what you said in your article on Jesus that you pasted in your response. Progress of a kind. 🙂
I don’t believe in “the God of Abraham” or original sin or the vicarious redemption of “the promise”. Do you believe that I am going to burn in “the lake of fire” for eternity?
No. I’m a believer in Conditional Eternal Life. The OT has no concept of Eternal Torment in a Lake of Fire called Hell. I don’t believe Jesus believed that either. It’s a teaching that has unfortunately accreted to Christianity that I don’t believe is a valid, biblical concept.
1. I sincerely appreciate your not considering me worthy of eternal hellfire.
2. Regarding “Conditional Eternal Life”, I, for one, do not want to live forever, because I cannot imagine an immortality, no matter how sublime, that would not be a living hell devoid of meaning. If, on the other hand, it was a reincarnation into something meaningful, I might reconsider.
3. Isn’t the “salvation” won by Jesus’s torture, execution, and resurrection central to Christian belief? Saved from what if not from hell? Merely saved from an eternal nothingness no different than the nothingness that preceded my birth?
4. Do you have a general process or set of principles by which you decide which parts of, and interpretations of, the Bible are, in your words, “a valid biblical concept”?
In answer:
1. You may very well be (just kidding) it’s just that I don’t believe there is such a place. 😉
2. That’s why it’s called Conditional. Jesus offers Eternal Life in Himself and the Father to “whosoever will”. Those who don’t, don’t have to. They can simply pass away or “perish” as Jesus puts it in John chapter 3.
3. Our “salvation” is in His death, resurrection and Life. The payment for our sins, and the Gift of His Life. Two sides of the same “coin” of exchange that took place on the Cross and is still taking place as He gives Life to all. To me at least “Life” seems to be a better “consequence” than facing the “price” i would pay for my own sins… namely death (Romans 3.23)
4. That’s a long discussion and I’m not sure I could explain to your satisfaction. I’ve found that many “atheists” or non believers are still stuck in the “fundamentalist” understanding and assumptions about Christianity. Not sure that would be a very fruitful discussion.
As for “God of abraham”, I believe He is the God and creator/sustainer of the universe and cosmos. He may have limited His “scope” to Abraham to explain and express Himself to the people of that time, but He is not limited to “just” the God of Abraham. He is the God of All.
Just my thoughts and hope I haven’t caused any disrespect. Definitely don’t mean any.
No worries, Robin. No disrespect sensed or taken in the least. Just two people sharing their thoughts without attacking each other. Thanks and Peace.
You’re very welcome and I appreciate that feel free to stop in my site anytime and say hello.
You know Frank I believe that’s how it should be. People should take the time to listen to one another instead of trying to force their opinion. Thank you so much for listening and peace to you as well.
So for me, the creation of man is too complex, our bodies, our thoughts, out dreams, our goals. Just doesn’t make sense to me that we exist because of the big bang theory.
What I will say is God spoke the world into existence and we have naturally evolved into what we are today.
Many aspects of the universe are admittedly quite phenomenal and mysterious indeed, my friend. That said, I am humbly agnostic with regard to the true nature of ultimate reality. Rather than jump to the conclusion that “God did it”, I make no claims and am keeping an open mind to any and all possible explanations.
That’s a very good way to look at it.
There is also a theory out there about a secret code in our DNA. Honestly I don’t know much about it but I’ll be looking into this as well. If you do let me know what you think. I know the guy that’s presenting this is a Christian but He’s also a physicist.
But I must say in the middle east archeologist are constantly making discoveries that correlate to the Bible.
And one of the things that’s so fascinating to me is Bible Prophecy. How the Bible predicts past wars, past kings, present wars, famines, disease, false gospels and false teachings and how people start changing as we draw closer to the Day of the Lord. Cause Christ is coming back and the Bible gives us so much detail.
A deadly serious question: Do you believe that I am going to burn for eternity in “the lake of fire” because I am a non-believer?
That’s an interesting question and a complex one. I believe God gives us many opportunities to decide, but, there are two scriptures that really stand out to me. The first is found in Matthew 10:33, But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in Heaven. And the second deals with the End Times and says this,
I can see that your answer to my question is an unequivocal “Yes”, but that you can’t bring yourself to actually say it. Because doing so creates too much logical and moral dissonance. But there’s no way out… for you are smart enough and decent enough to realize that deflecting the answer to what the Bible says is no different than saying “Yes”… that doing so grants your endorsement of infinite punishment for nonbelievers…. that doing so is incompatible with the commandment “judge not lest ye be judged”… and that doing so admits that you are willing to worship a supreme being who has no qualms about torturing courageous and generous people forever simply for not believing in him.
See that’s where I have a dilemma and husband and I have often talked about this. If you go through life and never accept Christ and take the mark of the beast then it’s a yes. In my mind there’s no doubt you will burn.
But say the person doesn’t take the mark of the beast, they’re able to elude it. Who am I to say that person can’t be saved? The mark condemns because you’ve clearly chosen a side, the side of evil. But if you don’t take it, even if you haven’t accepted Christ I believe there’s still an opportunity for that person, because you chose the side of good.
So that’s why I say it’s not that clear cut to me. I know many Christians don’t believe that way but something tells me there maybe something more we’re not aware of.
There are two other scriptures both in the Book of Revelation. It deals with those who take the mark of the Beast. The first is Revelation 19:20 which states; And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
The second is Revelation 20:15 and it states, And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
So the Bible is clear that people will be thrown into the lake of fire.
However, Jesus stated over and over we could be forgiven of all sin except one, the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, that we would not be forgiven of. And of course, if we take the mark of the beast.
This is the reason I believe it’s a complex question, because the Apostle Peter denied Christ 3 times before men when Christ was being crucified. So my personal view is if we deny Christ maybe somewhere down the road we change our mind, have an epiphany, or science discovers something that proves God existence I believe if we sincerely repent from turning away, we’ll be forgiven.
The Bible tells us He will give us every opportunity to accept and believe in him. Plus, I remember reading that you’re “called” to Christ.
With my blog I’m trying to learn and to show that as Christians we have gotten it so wrong. It breaks my heart when I read about someone going to a church and they were looked down on because how they were dressed, looked or the color of their skin. I just want people to feel comfortable coming to my site regardless of their belief.
Nice knowing me even though I am going to burn in hell forever?
None us knows what tomorrow holds. Something could happen that completely changes what you previously believed. So just keep an open mind.
Please don’t worry about me. I have zero fear of being dead… and am not afraid of hell. Although I do wonder how all my believing friends and family think they are going to have a blast in heaven knowing that Frankie is being tortured forever. (not joking)
Shah…I hear ya..no worries.
If you’ll indulge me and bare with me I’m at the store…But just something else to think about. In Matthew 24 Christ gives us information or “signs” that leads up to the Day of the Lord and the end of the age. Now in my opinion we’re not there, yet. But we are in the beginning and what Christ calls the beginning of sorrows. Christ told us what would happen before it “actually” happens.
He speaks of wars famines, earthquakes and pestilences. And many argue that the world has always had these things. Which is true! But, what Christ says is it’s the beginning of sorrows, or birth pains. Jesus was telling us that when you see these things increase in intensity and frequency you know the time is growing near. Just like a woman in labor as she draws closer to delivering the child her pains will grow in intensity and frequency.
Because when you look around our world, there’s no doubt storm intensity has increased, more and more wars are happening and becoming more tense. And if you like history you may find it interesting how the frequency of war has increased throughout the years.
Anyways, just something to think about
The reason I feel scientist will always try to disprove is because it would go completely against everything we’ve been taught and it would go against the government. Now granted, there are some who “truly” want to know so I shouldn’t generalize “all” scientist. That’s really not fair to lump everyone together.
But just think, if scientist could actually prove God existed what do you think the impact on humanity would be?
After all, it would be contrary to our actual government. Because many of the laws governments have in place would actually go against God’s teachings.
Just look at our world today it’s crumbling before our very eyes. There’s so much hate, and division among us. This all goes against God’s commands and what God’s Son Jesus Christ taught when He walked upon this earth.
So while I look forward to new discoveries by scientist I am skeptical because it flashes with our government and laws. Hopefully it will change, but I don’t think so.
I, for one, hope that “the God of Abraham” does not exist for fear that the USA would become a hardcore Old Testament eye for and eye theocracy.
Yea, it’s unfortunate that many Jewish people didn’t see the signs of the their Messiah, the Christ, Jesus’s Son, when He appeared. Many Jewish people rejected Him but it was through that rejection that all people were offered salvation. So it does have it benefits for us… I actually believe the Jewish leaders, were threatened by Christ. He threatened their very way of life. It’s just how I look at it..
I’m wrong they did use the word unicorn…Numbers 24:8, Job 39:9, Isaiah 34:7 and several in the book of Psalm. I had to look that up, I knew it was mentioned but didn’t realize they used the “actual” word unicorn. So see, I learned something too.
And the same holds true with the animals and even plants. And think about this, we eat plants and we eat animals they’re food for us, at least some. But do you really believe that if we were created by the big bang theory food would’ve been created for us? I don’t! We were created and God created food for us as well. Also, some people are strictly vegetarian, God knew this but the big bang theory would not. It’s not by chance, just saying 🙂
Basic biology teaches us that we are not above the animals. We ARE animals– an inseparable part of the web of life. Have you seen my post “Ode to Science”? (https://frankjpeter.com/2022/08/02/ode-to-science/)
No, but I’ll take a look at it.
Well, the reason I feel the universe was created is our bodies are just two complicated for some random big bang theory to happen. I mean think about how intricate the human brain is, the nervous system, the heart, the immune system and how they each react to and with each other.
Just the human brain with all of the functions we do know about, yet, many physicians claim we don’t know everything about it. It sends like an electrical compulsions to our limbs to respond and move. Think about this, the human digestion system, it blows my mind! When you start really processing everything the human body is made of, what each part does, how each different system works with each other it tells me that we were wonderfully designed and created. Not made by a random chance.
1. Many aspects of the universe are admittedly quite phenomenal and mysterious indeed, my friend. That said, I am humbly agnostic regarding the true nature of ultimate reality. Rather than jump to the conclusion that “God did it”, I make no claims and am keeping an open mind to any and all possible explanations.
2. The complexity you see in nature is simply and exquisitely explained by the theory of evolution by natural selection. It’s footprints are literally and figuratively preserved in an enormous and ancient fossil record and is supported by, multiple independent fields of study: cosmology, geology, anthropology, biology, chemistry, physics, genetics, geography, climatology and more. If you have your doubts, spend a few hours at a natural history museum– and prepare yourself to be amazed and humbled.
3. Your claim that “we were wonderfully designed” must face the facts of our frailties and vulnerabilities. For every example of “god’s perfect creation”, I can come up with a thousand more examples of “God’s love”: lung cancer, breast cancer, prostate cancer, skin cancer, cervical cancer, brain cancer, lymphoma, leukemia. How many types of cancer do we need to know that God loves us? Even more of God’s grace: countless birth defects, blindness, deafness, hepatitis, polio, AIDS, mononucleosis, Ebola, Cholera, Malaria, Influenza, Hantavirus, measles, Lyme disease, pneumonia, small pox, diabetes, monkey pox, asthma, muscular dystrophy, tuberculosis, hemophilia, gonorrhea, cataracts, herpes, hemorrhagic fever, gangrene, E-coli, salmonella, dementia, heart disease, lupus, flesh eating bacteria, syphilis, meningitis, spina bifida, emphysema, Alzheimer’s, encephalitis, Parkinson’s, cerebral palsy, typhoid, rabies, anthrax, cystic fibrosis, leprosy, sickle cell anemia, tetanus, multiple sclerosis, mad cow, bubonic plague, and a host of mental disorders – to name just a few.
And I do understand, but, think about this. Look at the chemicals in our foods, our water, in the very air we breath. And look how long this has been going on. Even our medicines have nasty effects. Man has manipulated, dissected, and spliced everything so much that we rely on that we’re now reaping the consequences of those actions. I do understand people’s frustration when we look at the whole picture, but, God gave us the ability to make our own choices. You see God gave us plants, roots and even fruits for natural medicines but we weren’t satisfied with that, nope, we had to make it better, at least in our eyes.
Now, modern medicine has dones some great things…but it has also caused devastation. For instance, the whole Covid issue. It’s really easy to see, man played a BIG part in that…just saying… 🙂
When they’re old enough to understand and make their own decisions.
As Stephen Fry would ask at the pearly gates: “Bone cancer in children? What’s that all about?”
I’ll be honest with you, I certainly don’t have all the answers. I’ve heard many different things about “why” it does happens. But in our modern era, I believe a lot of our health issues stems from adding chemicals where they don’t belong.
I to was a skeptic, but, I ask that you keep a open mind. What many has viewed as strictly stories in the Bible are now being scientifically proven. The world wide flood which occurred in Genesis was proven by the reknown underwater archaelogist, Robert Ballard. You can google him and find his info. And remember, scientist didn’t believe the flood ever took place. And the second one that I found extremely interesting was the scientist Dr. Michio Kaku who has a video stating how science could prove the existence of God. I watched this also and found it to be very fascinating. Hope you don’t mind but I’m including the link for you to look at if you like. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cyhXgT3w6A
Thanks for sharing, Robin.
I am working on the assumption that you are sincere and so your comments deserve a serious response.
First, I am not “skeptical” regarding the question of your God’s existence. I don’t merely DOUBT the existence of the “God of Abraham”. I REJECT the existence of such a God– not just on logical grounds– but on eminently MORAL grounds. (Evidence: The barbarisms in the Old Testament and the existence of bone cancer in children)
Second, your characterizations of both Ballard’s and Kaku’s work are greatly mistaken (perhaps you should read them directly rather than have third parties “interpret” them for you.)
Robert Ballard’s work may provide some evidence for a large flood in a very small part of the world. So what if such a flood occurred. And so what if it inspired the Noah story; it still fails miserably to prove the global inundation claimed in the Bible– not to mention all the other details claimed in the Bible account. And it still fails to provide any evidence that a supposed God caused it. But no matter, for any deity who would destroy innocent people and animals as such is a sadistic monster. Even if such a God existed, I would refuse to worship it.
Michio Kaku’s “God” is his equations on string theory. As to the true nature of ultimate reality, he, like me, is humbly agnostic regarding such matters.
Thanks and Peace
I understand where you’re coming from with innocent children, disease and all that, but, we don’t see the world the way God does. In his eye we are all born into sin and none of us are innocent.
I agree, Dr. Michio is agnostic but for a scientist to make such a claim means there’s more to what many believe created the big bang theory. You see scientist will always try to disprove God, the thing is they can’t.
Since the Bible centers around Israel there’s so much history you can compare to the Bible. Because the Prophets of the Bible prosphied these things long before they ever happened.
I’m not here to try and convince you, just give you something to think about.
1. What does it mean to be born into sin?
2. What do you mean by sin?
3. Are you really saying that children are not innocent and therefore deserve to suffer?
4. To my knowledge, Dr. Michio has never made any claims as you say he did.
5.Why do you assume that the universe was created?
6. Why do you say that “scientists will always try to disprove God”? It’s quite the contrary you know. Because anybody who had proof of a supreme being would surely win the Nobel Prize to beat all Nobel Prizes!
7. I agree that scientists can’t prove that god doesn’t exist– anymore than they can prove that unicorns don’t exist.
Sin came into the world through Adam and Eve who happened to be the first man and woman created by God. Once they were created God told Adam that he and Eve could eat the fruit from any of the trees in the Garden of Eden except one, the Tree of Life. You see God furnished them everything they needed. But Adam disobeyed God and ate of the tree anyway which cause them to see their own nakedness. They became ashamed and tried to hide from God. This angered God.
Now just like a human dad, if our children disobey us there’s consequences. God’s no different, since He created man and woman he is our father and once Adam disobeyed God, sin was created. Unfortunately, it gave man a death sentence and since our lineage is passed down from Adam He also passed down sin to us. This is the reason you may here Christians say we’re born into sin.
Sin is simply anything that goes against God.
Sorry it’s so long but hoping it makes sense. I’ll respond on a separate for the other explanations.
Let me clarify…sin came into the world because of Adam and Eve, therefore it’s passed onto us. Not like a hereditary trait being passed on, but passed on into the world. Hence, born into sin.
Now sin is doing something that goes against God. Children don’t know or understand so they’re not held accountable. Now, I was taught a child is not responsible until they understand and know the difference between right and wrong.
How is it even possible to live an ethical/moral life without the knowledge of good and evil?
Well, I believe some people are just naturally designed that way and I also feel there are those who are naturally designed toward evil. For instance the serial killer Ted Bundy, from what I understand He had a good upbringing but He chose to follow a path of destruction.